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Sinthy A. Grogan (b. April 08, 1836, d. June 01, 1911)

Sinthy A. Grogan (daughter of Albert E. Grogan) was born April 08, 1836 in McMinn County,Tennessee (nr Conasauga, Polk Co ), and died June 01, 1911 in Aldrich, Polk County, Missouri (or Linn Twp. Cedar Cty, MO). She married John Harvey on Abt. 1857 in Polk County, Tennessee.

Notes for Sinthy A. Grogan:
Known as Sinthy
The family's Bible has her name as Sinthy. Also found as Cintha and Cyntha.
Family tradition says that Cynthia married John HARVEY against her parent's wishes (Depew Family Assoc. Newsletter, July 1970).

Some say that Cynthia and brother William E. were twins (Depew Family Assoc. Newsletter, July 1968). They were recorded in separate age categories in the 1840 census with Cynthia older than William, but both were recorded as age 14 in 1850, again with Cynthia older than William.

Cynthia "vehemently denied that she was Indian and declared that she was 'Black Dutch.'" --Donnadene D. Depew, Sacramento, CA, in James Pylant, "In Search of the Black Dutch," American Genealogy Magazine, v.12, no.1 (March 1997): 15, 23.

My husband has a strong tradition of Black Dutch in his THOMAS line on his maternal side, but I'd never heard this term used in connection with his GROGAN line on his paternal side until I received an issue last week of the American Genealogy Magazine (March 1997) that includes the following from Donnadeane Depew:

This lengthy and informative article also includes the photograph of Cynthia and John HARVEY that many of us have. I had no idea that the GROGANs were included in this article until the magazine arrived and I leafed through the pages and saw the familiar photograph. You can imagine my startled surprise.

A copy of this magazine can be purchased online at http://store.yahoo.com/datatrace/in.html

For those of you not familiar with this term, put "Black Dutch" into any search engine and you'll come up with over 1,000 hits and quickly become thoroughly confused. Among all the possible explanations for the term (and there are many), this one seems to best describe it: "By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction."

In thinking about this statement credited to Cynthia GROGAN HARVEY, I checked her date of death (June 1, 1911) and got to thinking about the letter that Clarence HARVEY wrote to Donnadeane in 1939. In it, he mentions a 30 minute visit he had with President Wilson, and a little research into Wilson and his presidency revealed that this audience had to take place sometime prior to October 3, 1919, when he suffered his stroke. This tells me that the family's search for the records relating to the land in Minnesota may have started around the time that Cynthia died. However, I'm highly skeptical of that whole story, especially the part about Minnesota. An exact transcription of Clarence Harvey's letter is in my FTM file posted on RootsWeb at http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=sanderswilene&id=I180

The family's Bible has her name as Sinthy. Also found as Cintha and Cyntha.
Family tradition says that Cynthia married John HARVEY against her parent's wishes (Depew Family Assoc. Newsletter, July 1970).

Some say that Cynthia and brother William E. were twins (Depew Family Assoc. Newsletter, July 1968). They were recorded in separate age categories in the 1840 census with Cynthia older than William, but both were recorded as age 14 in 1850, again with Cynthia older than William.

Father: Albert E. "Allbird" GROGAN b: BET. 1812 - 1815 in Georgia (possibly near Raytown, Taliaferro Co.) or South Carolina
Mother: Mary (UNKNOWN) b: BET. 1812 - 1815 in North Carolina (possibly near Franklin, Haywood / now Macon, Co.)

Marriage 1 John HARVEY b: 10 OCT 1837 in Tennessee
Married: ABT. 1857 in Polk Co., TN
Children
Hugh L. HARVEY b: 12 AUG 1858 in Polk Co., TN
William Calvin "Cal" HARVEY b: 28 MAR 1860 in Polk Co. or Dade Co., MO
Sarah HARVEY b: 17 OCT 1862 in Polk Co. or Dade Co., MO
Emily (Emma) HARVEY b: 17 OCT 1862 in Polk Co. or Dade Co., MO
Albert HARVEY b: 1 OCT 1864 in Polk Co. or Dade Co., MO
Woodford H. "Wood" HARVEY b: 8 OCT 1863 in Polk Co. or Dade Co., MO
Mary Elizabeth HARVEY b: 13 APR 1869 in Polk Co., MO
John Leonard HARVEY b: 11 JAN 1871 in Dade Co., MO
Henry Alonzo HARVEY b: 11 JAN 1871 in Dade Co., MO
unnamed boy HARVEY b: 1873
Minnie A. HARVEY

Sources:
Title: Depew Family Association Newsletter
Page: v.4, no.2 (Jan. 1971), "John Harvey and Cynthia Grogan"
Cynthia, Black Dutch or Black Irish was also used as an colloquialism for Melungeon. A lot of people from Appalachia had Melungeon ancestors. Sheila
from Wilene Smith: My web search for the meaning and implication of Black Dutch introduced me to the Melungeons, a term, name, and people that was brand new to me at the time. However, the GROGAN name is not among those associated with the Melungeon people, so it would probably be a mistake to associate Albert and Mary with them rather than with the Cherokee. For those not familiar with the Melungeons, there's a GenForum for them, and the first lengthy and informative post on that forum is well worth reading. It's at http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/goto.cgi?forum=melungeon&num=1
From M.Meador: Wilene, Thanks for the lead to the Melungeon site. It is extremely interesting to read about these people. A list of Melungeon surnames is on the site of the Appalachian Quarterly at www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/5649/index.htm. The name of HARVEY is included.

WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH ? ? ? Your answers ran a spectrum from family tradition through encyclopedia citations, and because your findings may assist others who find this tradition in their family, here are some responses:

DUTCH, according to Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia: — a term which originally referred to ANYTHING of GERMAN derivation thus High Dutch signified the High German language, and Low Dutch the Low German.

In modern usage, however, the term Dutch may be CORRECTLY applied ONLY to the peoples and the language of the Netherlands. The phrase "Pennsylvania Dutch" referring to the speech and origin of the inhabitants of certain sections of Pennsylvania, dates from the time when DUTCH SIGNIFIED GERMAN.

The War of Spanish Succession, 1704-1714 fought by Austria, England, the Netherlands and Prussia - against France and Spain, arose over disputes over the succession to the throne of Spain on the death of Charles II of Spain.

Spanish soldiers married Dutch (Holland) girls, and their children. whose coloring was olive, with black hair were called "Black Dutch". Their Holland neighbors were fair skinned and blond. This explanation seems to have come down in several of your families who claim "Black Dutch" descent.

Another reported that the WILHITES who were imported to VA by Gov. SPOTTSWOOD as part of the Germana Colony of Iron workers were "Black Dutch." They came from Alsace-Lorraine an area of contention between France and Germany. They had black hair, "china blue to purplish blue eyes", fair skin, and tall. "The Black Forest" was mentioned as their home.

No doubt some of the German-speaking immigrants to the colonies WERE descendants of some of the darker races.

How we may have warped the meaning of "Black Dutch" becomes apparent in both a newspaper article and a letter. At a time when it was not fashionable to have Indian blood, here is what might happen:

"It used to be that if you had Indian blood in you and someone asked you what you were, you'd say 'Black Dutch' but now more and more of our people are coming out," said Morning Star, wife of Chief Neal McCormick, chief of the Eastern Creek Indian Nation.

Another writer, descendant of a Creek Chief, wrote "the term Black Dutch is used to refer to one that has Indian Blood, and most particularly with CREEK INDIAN BLOOD. Although there were a few German/Swiss in the Creek Nation, they were in the minority. The term acutally does not refer be have any connection to this nationality. The Creeks preferred the Scotch, English or Irish in that order as far as marriage was concerned. There is no explanation as to why they preferred the Scotch." So you see the term used to distinguish and describe progeny of Hollander-Spanish marriages, was later the disquise used by Indian white descendants to cover their red heritage.

We must hope that our "enlightened age" will see a renewed value placed on heritage, be it from red-white-or black.

More About Sinthy A. Grogan:
Burial: Unknown, Morris Cemetary, Dade County, Missouri.

More About Sinthy A. Grogan and John Harvey:
Single: Abt. 1857, Polk County, Tennessee.

Children of Sinthy A. Grogan and John Harvey are:

+Minnie Ann Harvey, b. April 04, 1876, Joplin (Jasper Co.) or Neosho (Newton Co.), Missouri, d. December 12, 1944, Hawthorne, California.
Hugh L Harvey, b. August 12, 1858, Polk Co., Tennessee, d. July 31, 1860, Polk Co., Missouri.
+William Calvin Harvey, b. March 29, 1860, Polk or Dade Co., Missouri, d. September 02, 1935.
Emily Emma Harvey, b. October 12, 1862, Polk or Dade Co., Missouri, d. April 03, 1939, Dade Co., Missouri.
+Sarah Harvey, b. October 12, 1862, Polk or Dade Co., Missouri, d. date unknown.
+Woodford H. Harvey, b. October 08, 1863, Polk or Dade Co., Missouri, d. May 13, 1950, Oklahoma.
Albert Harvey, b. October 01, 1864, Polk or Dade Co., Missouri, d. date unknown.
Mary Elizabeth Harvey, b. April 13, 1869, Polk Co., Missouri, d. June 13, 1961, Dade Co., Missouri.
John Leanard Harvey, b. January 11, 1871, Dade Co., Missouri, d. date unknown, Missouri.
Henry Alonzo Harvey, b. January 11, 1871, Dade Co., Missouri, d. October 20, 1907, Polk, Polk Co., Missouri.
Infant Harvey, b. 1873, d. August 02, 1873, Missouri.